Peter and Helen Evans

What is the Orthodox Church's stand on IVF and cloning? What should be done with so-called "leftover" embryos which are not implanted? What does a 2,000 year-old faith have to say to modern technology on the sanctity of human life?

Helen: Sometimes we hear people justifying destroying the "leftover" embryos with the rationale that they only have enough love for one child, they couldn't imagine having enough love for four or five.

Ralph: When we're talking about Christians, we're dealing with human beings living life in a fallen, sinful world. We, in ourselves, do not have enough love to even give one other person the kind of love God would give to them. As humans, we are much more limited than God, and on top of that, we are fallen. Our love is inadequate for even one other person. If we are married a husband's love is inadequate for his wife and a wife's love is inadequate for her husband. So when you get to children, then just assume that your love will be inadequate for your first child, let alone the second or third or fourth.

Because we are fallen, we don't have enough wisdom to accurately evaluate ourselves. We can't wrap our minds and hearts around ourselves, much less another person. A mother is inadequate for her children but, as Christians, we have to rely on God's grace. I'm not saying that couples shouldn't make a choice as to how many children to have. As far as I'm aware even the Roman Catholic Church believes that couple have the right to choose how many children to have. They differ on the matter of contraception or, more to the point, how the couple implements the choice they make.

Even so, as husbands and wives, we are well aware that we can take all the measures we want, but ultimately life is in the hands of God. In my mind, we don't have a leg to stand on to justify destroying multiple embryos.

Helen: What if someone said, "But the science is here. God wouldn't have let us have the science if He didn't want us to use it."

Ralph: God does want us to use the science. The question is whether we are using science to help and benefit human life. I believe life begins at conception, so I would view the embryo as a human life. Let's say you're a Christian but don't take that perspective. Let's say you believe there is a gradual growth of "ensoulment" or whatever the phrase might be. Even then, you're still faced with the fact that you have an embryo that will become a human being. Where do you feel comfortable saying that you can destroy it at a certain stage? The issue is that the embryo will become a human being. It's not just "a mass of cells." It's a potential human being.

Helen: An objection, to the idea that we can use science any way we want, compares science to a hammer. The hammer is used incorrectly if we bash someone on the head with it. It all depends on how we use it.

Ralph: Here's a quote from the Church of England's statement, "The embryo is an amazing entity that is able to direct its own growth and development; albeit not 100% successfully." After reading this statement, I would ask people who are struggling with this issue - and it's part of being human to seek God's will for your life - "When would you feel comfortable destroying an embryo?"

Helen: Is there any correlation between transplanting organs and using embryonic cells for medical science?

Ralph: No, they are two totally different situations. If you are an organ donor, you are consciously choosing to donate your organs either in life, or you have given notification for the donation after your death.

Peter: Are you making the distinction between voluntary and involuntary donation?

Ralph: Yes, and we consider sacrifice as an essential part of being fully human. If you are donating an organ, some might argue that you are giving of yourself to save others, making a sacrifice for the sake of others. You can't say the same about the destruction of embryos.

Helen: Your talk about sacrifice flies in the face of a lot of what we might call "media Christianity" that implies that God just wants us to be happy.

Ralph: Yes, it does. My belief on that is that God is little concerned about our happiness, but He is very concerned about our joy. Happiness is different than joy. In some ways, happiness is a very superficial emotion. A valid emotion, but superficial. I could be happy if I'm having a good day at work, but that happiness could instantly disappear if I happen to cross my neighbor. Happiness can be very transitory, but joy is a matter of the deepest recesses of our being, and we really have to get into the heart. God is concerned with us being joyful whether our circumstances are good or bad. One of the questions asked by the writer on marriage is, "Have you made the choice to be happy?" To some degree this is under our control. You know the old saying, "If life gives you lemons, make lemonade."

Peter: We have to bring our own sugar to the lemons life gives us.

Helen: In one segment of the movie, "Bruce Almighty," Jim Carry (Bruce) gives everyone he meets "what they want to make them happy." Well, pretty soon the world is chaos. When Bruce talks to God about it, God replies, "Whatever made you think people know what makes them happy?"

Ralph: My wife and I were watching a movie recently which I think touches upon this. At the end of the story one character says to another, "You've achieved everything you've set out to achieve, are you now happy?" The reply is, "Well, men don't always know when they are happy, but I think so."

Helen: Let's take this idea of happiness to cloning. Perhaps I don't know what will make me happy, but I think it would be a good idea to have another "me" for spare parts.

Peter: I'd like to elaborate on that. The point of the question is the contrast between two uses of cloning. One is cloning embryos and destroying them to get their stem cells, which is wholesale murder. The other - cloning embryos to grow into adults - is almost the opposite, it's a multiplication of life. We do have to allow for the possibility that God will ensoul these new beings; even though they are created in a non traditional way.

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